OK, Marley, you copyright guru!

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Marley (and all),

What are your thoughts on this hypothetical.

Suppose I wanted to do a do a Logan's Run continuation. (Forget that people are looking at it right now ... work with me here).

It was a film, based on a book, that then became a television series.

Now, for the fun of it, ... suppose I also wanted to cast a guy who acted exactly like Michael York ... who exactly duplicated his mannerisms, gestures, way of talking ... the whole bit. Michael York about ten years after the film.

Yet, I wanted to toss in all sorts of stuff from the television series .... use the settings, use some of the characters, ... the whole bit.

Now, to make the whole thing really, really complicated (just for the fun of the concept), suppose that the book, Logan's Run were actually written in 1890 and was part of the Gutenburg Project?

Suppose also that Michael York was dead.

I suspect I know a lot of these answers but I wanted to get your (and the smart folks) opinion on this.

I would say exactly what I'm kicking around but I've had too many good ideas stolen this past year.


Sandy

[Bishop37]

You'd after pay the book's authors, and whoever owns the film and TV rights now. Some of the concepts and characters might be unique to the original film and TV show so you'd probably after pay the people who originated them too.

I doubt that there's any wiggle room for a 'pro' production that'd be competing with the remake movie.

[Darth Marley]

I would have to look it up, but the "Gutenburg Project" may only include public domain works. I think that is the point of that stipulation.

The matter of using a Michael York likeness (like that vacuum commercial, was that Fred Astaire they digitally resurrected for that?) is an issue even more bogus than perpetual copyrights. Do we really own our likeness? If so, then why are the celebrity paparazzi tolerated?

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/B183820.DOC

The Dee-Lites singer sues because she thinks a character in a video game looks too much like her.

http://www.firstamendment.com/celebrity_fakes.php3

What about fake porn? Gillian Anderson's head on other women's bodies got its own newsgroup a decade ago.

http://www.allbusiness.com/services/legal-services/4466606-1.html

This is a good general information article on the "Right of Publicity" and mentions the Kirby (Dee-Lites singer) early on.

http://www.schleimerlaw.com/SynthespiansII.htm

Detailed lawyerese on that the MPAA is doing to keep the legal concept of "Right of Publicity" under its control.

http://www.iies.es/bd/publicity/rp2.htm

A general critique of the "Right of Publicity" in the Internet Age.

The estate of Michael York would be paid under current laws. The same legal idea that would force a toy company to compensate him for using his likeness for a Logan 5 doll would apply to digitally using his likeness in a commercial work.

This is something a Google search occasionally describes as a "post-mortem right of publicity."

In a spoof however, you can pretty much do what you please.

But, since the book is not in the public domain, there are still movie option contracts that make money for W.F. Nolan.

And, as the Harlan Ellison bit points out, if you wanted to use REM, then you have to pay whichever writer created him, or the production would be sued by the WGA.

So, if you have an idea, and this line of inquiry is part of the vetting process, the links above might help.

But, casting a look-alike, as long as they were properly credited, I don't see how that could be a problem.

[Alternity Orange]

What they said. You'd first have to have a deal with the copyright holders of the original property (and they are decidedly unavailable at the moment.) Once there you'd have to either get the rights or pay the fees to all of the individual writers of the movie and TV episodes for the concepts therein you'd use that weren't in the original. After all those poor WGA writers have been on soup lines for years. But the Michael York thing wouldn't be an issue at all. There's even a recent precedent with Brandon Routh channeling Christopher Reeve's voice and mannerisms. No permission was needed for that.

[Darth Marley]

I think he has something in mind other than what the conventional roadblocks would cause expensive rights payments.

Pretending that it is a public domain work, that there have been multiple incarnations of said public domain work, and that you deliberately imitate the looks and mannerisms of an actor who performed said work in making yet another incarnation of it...what are the legal ramifications.

It is possible that some lawyer would make a case that the original actor's performance is a copyrighted work, much like a vocalist can copyright a performance of a public domain song or opera.

But I don't think Neil Diamond can sue Super Diamond for sounding like him. As long as he gets the ASCAP money, such imitations are legal.

[Alternity Orange]

It is possible that some lawyer would make a case that the original actor's performance is a copyrighted work, much like a vocalist can copyright a performance of a public domain song or opera.

Sure, while no one in Hollywood is looking for new ways of being original and creative, they are all looking for new ways of making money. But at present there is no precedent and it actually skews the other way.

[Stallion Cornell]

I actually wrestled with this similar thing when I wrote a musical that's a sequel to Peter Pan. The original novel by JM Barrie is in the public domain, but the play by Barriem which is based on the novel, isn't. To make things more complicated, the British government, by an act of Parliament, extended the Peter Pan copyright to benefit the Great Ormond Street Hospital (G.O.S.H.), which owns same.

There was a Canadian woman who wrote a book called After the Rain, which was a sequel to Peter Pan, and she got sued by G.O.S.H., and they were forced to settle, essentially establishing that Peter Pan is, in fact, public domain.

Today, Dave Barry's popular Peter Pan sequels pay no royalty to G.O.S.H.or anyone else.

Summing up: if your source work is in the public domain, then you can use any story ideas you want. If you're stealing visuals from a copyrighted adaptation, however, you're in trouble.

[Darth Marley]

Well, the concept of "Public Domain" is something set by each government.

Many classics are "public domain" in Europe but not in the USA.
Sadly, WIPO treaty discussions are not working to expand the public domain globally, but rather to work to protect the financial interests of copyright holders.

[Eugenia]

Pretending that it is a public domain work, that there have been multiple incarnations of said public domain work, and that you deliberately imitate the looks and mannerisms of an actor who performed said work in making yet another incarnation of it...what are the legal ramifications.

It is possible that some lawyer would make a case that the original actor's performance is a copyrighted work, much like a vocalist can copyright a performance of a public domain song or opera.

The last I looked a performer's copyright of a work was much shorter than the creator's copyright to the work. It was something like 25 years, but could have changed since I looked it up.

In the area of deliberately imitating the looks and mannerisms of an actor in a public domain work, I haven't heard of anyone making a legal issue of ballet dancers and opera singers copying the looks and mannerisms of their predecessors in the same role. It's rather expected to a degree as that was the main way of preserving the more intangible aspects of the roles in the works before audio and visual recording.

[Gemini1999]

I would think that one of the biggest issues concerning copywright would be if the project in question is going to make money or not. If it's a "not for profit" production, I don't think that there would be a problem.

As someone pointed out, Harlan Ellison had an issue with the new Trek film using the Guardian of Forever, but that same story element was used in the Star Trek New Voyages episode, "In Harm's Way" and I haven't heard about any litigation issues over it.

Bryan

[dru]

Well, the concept of "Public Domain" is something set by each government.

Many classics are "public domain" in Europe but not in the USA.
Sadly, WIPO treaty discussions are not working to expand the public domain globally, but rather to work to protect the financial interests of copyright holders.

So very irritating too considering some of the strongest lobbyists on this issue are corporations who made their bread and butter on mining public domain works. :x

[TwoBrainedCylon]

This would all be a FOR PROFIT project.

The actor's mannerisms and speech in portraying a fictional character would be duplicated as exactly as possible.

The original book was written in the 1800s.

The films and television series were all made in the 50s.

The actors I want to copy are now dead and the production company is defunct.


Sandy

[Darth Marley]

Read up a bit on the "doctrine of latches" and see if you think it would make an affirmative defense if someone were to appear and claim some kind of ownership.

[Tribe13]

Hold the phone here. Are you talking about a Michael York CGI likeness? Or an actor who looks, sounds, and acts like Mr. York? Because if it's another actor entirely, and as long as your credits make clear it's NOT Mr. York, that shouldn't be an issue.

I think I need to read the book.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Nope, talking about finding an actor who can copy another dead actor as closely as possible.

The Doctrine of Latches just confused me.



Sandy

[Ham Tyler]

Some research into how Alan Moore did the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen books might help.

He took public domain characters and did three comics outta them. (I think he wasn't to thrilled with the movie though).

I guess the international public domain laws are playing a factor in the new one, since some characters are PD here and NOT in Europe.

Weird stuff. Good luck though!